Episode #16: Anthony Gaud
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Anthony Gaud shares the story of his journey through the entertainment industry, his start in toy design eventually leading him to his current role as co-founder and CEO of GaudHammer Gaming Group. He shares insights on the evolving intersection of video games, iGaming, and casino gaming, the impact of AI in creative fields, and the importance of adaptability and continuous learning in the current gaming landscape.
Notes
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Steven: Welcome to another episode of Level Up with Wondr Nation. I am Steven Slotwinski, the Vice President of Product Strategy at Wondr Nation, and I'm excited to welcome Anthony Gaud to the podcast.
A little background on Anthony here, Anthony's an Emmy award-winning creative executive an entrepreneur with over 20 years of experience in the gaming industry, entertainment industry, and the eSports industry. Throughout his career, he has been involved in groundbreaking projects and initiatives with executive experience at renowned organizations, including Hasbro, Comcast, Microsoft, Disney, and Nexon.
Today he's the co-founder and CEO Gaud-hammer Gaming Group providing game developers, esports organizations, and content creators with an exciting opportunity in the rapidly growing real money video gaming industry.
So, you started your career in toy design, if I remember that correctly, and then you moved into creative directing.
Can you tell us about that experience?
Anthony: When I came out, I always wanted to do something exciting, after watching Star Wars, I caught that Luke Skywalker bug. I went to the University of Cincinnati, and I studied industrial design and engineering, and it seemed exciting but when you went into the actual job, it was really boring, right?
So, I had one of the great things about University of Cincinnati is that they do an internship program and you actually get to go to those jobs. So, I did that twice. You have four internships, and I thought, well, this is just not that much fun. I don't like drawing schematics for like apple shavers and doorknobs and stuff like that.
So, my third internship was mad magazine, that was crazy. And then my fourth, my last one was at Sega of America in Los Angeles. Once you get a little bit of the taste of the entertainment bug it's hard to put down. I did work for Hasbro because they were located in Cincinnati.
What was surprising about that job was how much Hasbro actually did outside of designing toys, even though designing toys was obviously what they did. They had a huge say in how movies at the time put on screen what they put on screen, right?
That's how I got started in entertainment was really at Hasbro and made my connections that way. They had bought Kenner, which was in Cincinnati, bunch of stuff going on at the time. The first thing that was going on was that they were trying to get into this…Kevin Mauer's version of what he later called toyetic properties.
At the time, movie companies used to make a lot of money from licensing of toys and that was one of the primary drivers. Initially, Hasbro made toys and Kenner both made toys based on the movies. But after a while, the movies started coming to Hasbro and saying, hey, if you were to make this, as Kevin says, more toyetic, what would you do? What would you add? And that started the process where it became more formalized.
We started working on a whole bunch of different films like Men in Black. A lot of the gimmicks of Men in Black were designed at Hasbro, like when they go into the fire hydrant and they pull out the guns, stuff like that, the car, a whole bunch of stuff. Batman when they made those movies, aliens the alien movies took a lot of inspiration from what Kevin Mauer did. I think the idea that the aliens look like what they came out of, so if it came out of a dog, it was on four legs, came out of Hasbro.
When I joined, trying to get the Star Wars license back and one of my very first jobs was to get that license back. My job was, was to create a CGI presentation. That was 1995 so at the time CGI was new. So that was my first job. It was so much fun.
Steven: That's cool. So you were working effectively, like you were doing digital work for a toy company back in the 90s, essentially.
Anthony: it was a little bit, it was a lot of drawing, we would have rooms, and we would stick stuff on the walls. I was introducing the digital stuff. So that was my job, get people from using pencils and rulers and going to digital.
So, we contacted a member SGI, silicon Graphics, contacted them, did a deal with them, and we slowly moved the studio into CGI.
When I was in the Transformers team, they wanted to do something really unique with the Transformers property so they had me exploring what it would look like to make these things into CGI models. It had only been one television show to date, Reboot, that had ever been done in CGI. So I started working with Mainframe in Vancouver and eventually loved it so much that I actually switched jobs and became the studio art director at Mainframe.
Steven: That's cool. Obviously your background's heavy, creative, heavy directing, heavy, you know, digital, we'll call it from that perspective. How did You go from really like, we'll call it like the entertainment industry or the movie industry, the film industry into video games, into the gaming industry?
Anthony: They're really very related and they always kind of have this sort of Venn diagram where you kind of overlay them all together. When I started at Mainframe, we were taking people off the streets to teach them CGI, like literally people had no idea of anything.
People that just wanted to work in the TV industry, they would act as gophers, you know, go for this, go for that in a day. At night they had free use of the computers and all the manuals that we got. And some of the animators would teach them.
The animators we had that just really learned animation on their own, because there wasn't any previous people to teach them, they would stay after and teach and it sort of became this school of sorts at night, a night school.
A lot of those people would go over to Electronic Arts or would go over to Vancouver, would go over to a lot of the companies that were there. We had a huge crossover of employees after a few years with video games. A lot of that kind of started together and it never really left, because whether you're doing real time graphics, 3D or doing pre-rendered stuff, which is more like what we were doing at Mainframe, there was a huge amount of overlap, and it's a very small industry at the time. It was probably 150 people total.
When I left Mainframe, my next immediate job was over at Warner Brothers in Boston. So I worked at a studio in Boston that was responsible for Asheron's Call. Later they brought in and did lord of the Rings Online and some other of those online games. Honestly, there's a lot of crossover stuff not just the animators, but also the pre-production designers, a lot of the creators and producers. So I would say at that time, the feels are very, very similar, and I would say this time, they're still very similar.You're seeing a lot of TV shows and movies made using Both Unity and Unreal. There's always been a lot of crossover in those fields.
Steven: So from your career journey here, going from the film industry to the gaming industry, what are your biggest lessons learned? Some of the coolest things that you were able to bring from one industry to another?
Anthony: Never burn any bridges, that that's like the number one rule, never burn any bridges. Just the other day I was at Sega in Los Angeles, like last week. And I saw someone that worked at Mainframe, I saw somebody that worked at Warner Brothers. You never know where these people are gonna go, right? That's like a common rule for any job really, but especially in a job where you kind of tend to jump around.
I like to be the first to doing something. And I guess if we're going to talk about, you know, regulated video games. But the idea that we were 1st, the idea that we didn't know how to do it, We had to figure out the answers and then create the manuals and other people would read later on. That really always appeals to me, that's one of the things that, that I think when industries mature, like they are now, you kind of lose a little bit of that and then you come more corporate run and that kind of loses some of the magic.
But I mean, I could be here all day talking about what I've learned. Besides not burning bridges, it's to always learn new things, right? Like the industry changes so quickly and you never know when something will come up that completely flips everything on his head. So at the time, CG was that thing to hand drawn animation.
But now I'm seeing a lot of artificial intelligence rendering styles that are unbelievable. Some of the experimental stuff where you're doing real time AI worlds with, with you provided reference, I don't think anybody saw that coming, right? They're not using pixels, they're not using CG, are using in a way like computer imagination.
That's the thing about the industry that if you want to stay employed for a long time and not get left out in the cold, when a major change happens is when something always keep reinventing yourself and learning technologies, even if it doesn't mean that you're actually learning it, but at least keep up to date on everything.
Steven: Would you, would you consider that like one of the biggest challenges in your world? Just trying to keep up with, with, with what's moving quickly right now?
Anthony: Well, AI is the biggest challenge because I think AI is going to really replace a lot of people. In the art field, when you have a director who can tell a computer at three o'clock in the morning when he has an idea to visualize it, it's very hard to replace that, right?
Steven: I mean, you look at like, like concept designs, right? Like how much time and effort is put into concepts and coming up with that artwork and trying to take something that someone's created from words and you would have artists draw multiple concepts and try to refine them until you get something that you like.
And now it's, like you said, you just put those words in a computer and you're done and AI takes it over and you got yourself something completely out of this world that looks, that looks phenomenal. Like the speed is incredible, you know, to try to get that done now.
But like you said, it's like those are jobs that are going to be tough to come by soon.
Anthony: But there's a software app called Viscom which is really the ideal place, right? So Viscom is a drawing app that uses AI, but if you're an experienced concept designer, it just elevates your own skill. And I think that's really the balance, right? You want to make your skills better but you don't want to eliminate people from having those jobs.
So in the same way that we had to make a decision not to buy from Amazon, if you could buy from your local bookstores people have to make decisions all across every facet of their life of how much AI is going to take over our lives. Do you go to the McDonald's that they have in Nevada that's all AI? Where there's nobody and you just order from a computer and a robot gives it to you? If that's the experience you want you can get that experience, but I think, One of the biggest problems in modern society is the feeling of loneliness that we have even in a connected world. And I think we have to start making decisions that connect us to other people, not decisions that remove other people.
Steven: Yeah. I like what's interesting. It's like, I, I always go back to this example. When you had to build a building or a skyscraper in New York city and you had a hundred men with shovels digging a hole, right. That's how it started.
At some point someone invented a backhoe, and it replaced 99 of them because one of them was using this backhoe and one person was able to dig the hole and, you know, two weeks time versus six months. And now you have 99 people out of a job, right?
That whole aspect of technology and how quickly it is evolving it's incredible.
Anthony: And it's moving faster than anyone had ever imagined it could. Nobody thought that the first things it was going to go after was art and music, but here we are. Like a monster where you're looking at it, go, that's really cool. But you're also petrified.
Steven: Exactly. I remember like the last, what is the actor strike that just happened? AI was a huge component of that because it's using all of their likenesses to, you know, build up their models and eventually it's like, you know, do you need actors anymore?
Anthony: As we go further, we're all kind of going into our own little worlds and AI, especially the latest tools where you could just, you know what, you don't like Harrison Ford in that role, put somebody else in that role and you could watch a different version of it. It's very cool from a technical point of view. It's very scary from a societal point of view.
one of the things that you're seeing in like gambling, trying to wrap it up into some holistic discussion is that there's a desire for more social play. We're actually kind of moving in the opposite direction with gambling, right?
We're saying, okay, well, you're playing a slot machines. Wouldn't it be a lot more fun if other people could join you, or you could play with, collectively with your friends and maybe even against other people. I
think that people always have this built in desired to be part of a community and technology has this sort of ongoing Development wrap that just goes off on its own regardless of what anybody wants And I think we just have to be careful the humans stay in charge Of the future. It's crazy that I even said that because five years ago that would have sounded insane But five years ago, we didn't have AI like we do right now and you know one day this thing is going to wake up and make our decisions for us
Steven: there you go, Skynet, it's happening. So back to you a little bit here, you co founded a company called Kabillion and that was one of Comcast first video on demand channels.
Anthony: Made the dumb decision to start my own company. I tell him Warner brothers and I said, I could sell television shows. I've been doing this enough.
We created a sort of an IP development house and we did pretty good. We developed three we sold three. We wanted to expand on that, so we approached comcast and said look you guys we heard you want to do original content would you put some of our shows on this new video on demand thing that you guys have And they said no and we said, thank you very much but then then they said But we can give you a channel so you could do it
it was like one of those things where You get a great thing and a bad thing at the same time. We have to pay for our own video on demand channel, right? We need to make content, we need to do all this. I like those challenges so we took it and we launched Kabillion, which is now, which is still on the air, that was 2006 and it was one of the first video on demand channels, period.
What's funny, Steve, is anytime you do something new, you run into this opposition wave of people that just don't think it's a good idea. And then something happens and then everyone says, of course, it's stupid not to think it's a good idea. And you never know when that's going to be, right? And I think we're seeing that with video games and gambling which we can talk about later.
Every time you do something new, you have to learn everything from the ground up. We would make these pitches and the pitches would be a document, you know, a document that outlines a script.
What the first episodes would be what the evergreen property of it the licensing of it the branding of it, you know, you have to go through a lot of work It's it's a year's worth of work for each one at least right? And sometimes they work sometimes they don't work .
That's the risk of the creative right even in gambling You make a slot machine Concept and you put a lot of money in and nobody plays it right, but it looks just like kitty Glitter, but it's not kitty glitter.
We don't want to we don't want it So it's, it's one of those things that creating IP, I think has a massive risk and reward associated with it.
I think that's where the casino gaming industry has to turn to right. Where the creation of brands are going to be the separators between one casino and another, when they both have really the same products in a certain sense, who has the brands that resonate the best for people.
Steven: Yeah, for sure. You did all of these different things prior to really getting into gaming, like, how did you get into gaming?
And then how did you get into the gambling aspect of gaming?
Anthony: Yeah, so, um,
I think I just wanted to get into gaming so badly because that is my number one passion, right? I love creating IP, but I love video games.
Anthony: A friend of mine said that there was an opportunity. Disney was looking to acquire some companies, we quickly put one together and they acquired us. So we were able to work at the Walt Disney Company I was a head of creative there of the interactive and we worked on a whole bunch of great stuff, Kingdom Hearts and Marvel games.
It was taking all those tools and all those experiences and really the IP creation and saying, okay, well we can not only create new IP, we can work with the existing IP and Disney has the best IP on planet Earth. How would you take Kingdom Hearts and put it in a different direction or working with Warren Spector on Epic Mickey. Like, what is that, what are the next adventures for Mickey Mouse?
There was a while after the 1970s that everyone thought Mickey Mouse was dead. Like, it was just a dead brand. But no, Warren brought it back. And then we brought back Oswald the rabbit, which was, as far as I know, the only time a human being, and I forget which one it was I think it was Al Michaels I remember from ABC sports was traded for a non-living being, which is Oswald. That was an actual trade. We give you Al Michaels, you give us Oswald the rabbit.
How do you update that and make it relevant? That was how I made, I made it in the game. So we worked on Tron. I mean, we worked on a whole bunch of stuff. I can't talk about half of it, but a lot of it was just trying to expand the Disney IP.
Steven: That's cool. That's cool. And then, so you went from that, and I'm sure you've done quite a few things in between, to your most recent venture here, which is Gaud-Hammer Gaming Group.
Anthony: I'll give you the public version of this. 'cause there's some details I can't share.
We were approached by a casino gaming regulator, and they had said that they thought that video game gambling would be the next big thing and that they had spoken to Microsoft, they had spoken to Activision, they had spoken to Sony, and while they were all in agreement that it is the next big thing, none of them decided to move on it. So I was asked to figure out why.
I was doing some background research for A4637, which is the e sports gaming bill. I did all the background sort of investigations for that but in parallel to that, there were these discussions going on about how viable is the merging of video games and gambling.
While we had the Disney studio, we were approached by some of the big gambling companies, the slot machine companies who were having a huge problem with just trying to figure out how to reduce churn, right?
So they make them a slot machine. People get bored out of it after 20 minutes, go on to the next one. What are some techniques that video game people knew to reduce that churn? We had experimented with hybrid video game slot machines, and they were extremely, extremely, extremely powerful.
When that regulator approached us we saw it as a real opportunity to really do it right. So right when Covid hit. We started, we got investors me and Jim, Ted and two other guys, Mike Brussel and Mike Avio, and put together the Gaud-Hammer Gaming Group with the mission of solving that issue.
So IGA is big, casino gaming is big, video games are bigger. As a form of example, just to show you the Academy Awards have around 10 million views a year when they have them. I was at the Game Awards last week and they just announced the viewership a few hours ago 154 million people watch the video game awards.
So it isn't about can we make gambling appeal to the video game people or can we make video games appeal to the gambling people? There is already a huge crossover audience. The products that they want are not slot machines because they do not trust them. If they don't have any agency, which is the ability to make choice They don't want those products, they they're video gamers they're used to making choices With why you see these crash games out of europe You Being so successful all of a sudden. They're very simple. They're very basic, but you make a choice, and that really appeals to this generation.
I think that is the beginning of this next big thing, which I think this regulator was right, is the video game industry merging with the gambling industry.
Steven: So you think, you see it evolving more into games of choice, you're trying to figure out essentially the next generation of gaming and like, How to take those elements from the video game industry and bring them to the gambling industry, or is it vice versa, where you're trying to take gambling elements and bring them into more of a video game, you know, style.
Anthony: I think it's, it's a little bit of both, right? It really depends on the genre. So many different kinds of games, runners, shooters, sports games, puzzle games they each require a little bit of different kind of determinations of how much choice is too much choice and not enough choice and how much randomness is too much or too little. I think there is a path forward starting with Crash games where it's mostly random with choice but I think over the next three to five years you're going to see a lot more Video gamey stuff, where we're making a lot of decisions, right?
Where I don't see it going at least not in a big way, is what is traditionally called skill based gaming where I'm playing against you, and whoever has the more skill wins. Because I think there's too many people that are too good at things. If you've ever played any seconds at all on Call of Duty You try playing against someone that's experienced, you won't last literally two seconds.
That kind of gameplay, I don't think that works but I think combination of chance and skill is, is in some fashion is going to be how the industry succeeds.
Steven: And is that what you guys are trying to define over at Gaud-Hammer right now?
Anthony: Yeah, I mean, essentially what we're doing is what Parker Brothers did, which is like, really, Monopoly is a combination of chance and skill, right? All these board games that have been so popular for so many generations are combinations of chance and skill.
What we've been working on for the last five years is prototypes, learnings, explorations of how those things work, and we are going to roll out with what we think are the best ones to start the industry off.
Whenever you're the first You're going to be followed by a lot of others if it succeeds So we're going to be the first and we're going to be followed by a lot of others and it's our job to stay ahead of that, but that's what makes it exciting, Steve, because I think if you've been in iGaming for a long time, the industry is going to change, and you are going to start to see a lot more of this, I don't want to call it Hollywoodism, but a lot more personalities entering the space, as you see game designers that are going to be more famous and more well known than they are for slots enter the space.
You're going to see brands, you're going to see swaths of people that identify with those brands. The gaming space, the iGaming space is going to change dramatically over the next 5 to 10 years. And I think for, for the better.
Steven: That's cool. That's cool. That was actually gonna be my next question. How you see the gaming industry evolving over the next five to 10 years. That's really interesting because it's like you're going to have more people who have been in the video game industry for a long time.
I could definitely see them do the same thing if they do kind of like a quick jump into the gambling industry. It's highly lucrative.
That's the jump that everyone's going to take at some point. I agree with you. Like, something will change. Slots are slots, they're very simple for the most part, the features that are added to them are, we'll call it small jumps from game to game. Some of them stick, some of them don't, and everyone's looking for the next big thing right now for the next generation of gaming.
I think that's a pretty cool company that you've started in, in, in for the last five years. You've been running up a steep hill trying to figure this out and I wish you the best of luck because that is awesome.
Anthony: It's interesting because I think you're going to see a lot of people acknowledging that this is the next big thing, more and more, because when we started this out, I can tell you, three years ago, everyone thought it was crazy.
I think now when we do our pitches and presentations for partnerships and support, the reactions we get are almost 180 to three years ago. Like, oh, that's not going to work. And now we have where meetings like, of course, it's going to work, it's the only thing that will work.
Anthony: Part of that Is an understanding that all these casinos really have the same products and are competing with each other over the same products So how does casino a different from casino b if they each offer kind of the same slots and the same poker the same games?
A lot of casinos are sort of at war with their own licensees, these online skins, because they're creating the competition that takes away more revenue from them. So they're going to look for different products to separate each other out, and that's where you see really the beginning of the video game industry, like in the 70s, right? Where these companies in television, Activision, Nintendo are going to be competing for like their mascots, their games, their experiences.
I really see that whole thing happening all over again, which to me, more exciting than putting it on my resume is that you were part of it, right? That you got to see it, that you go to the trade shows and that energy, the excitement is there, right? Like for anybody that's listening, if you haven't been to SBC in Europe, it is an entirely different show than anything in the States, right?
It is E3 15 years ago, it's exciting. It's all these ideas that you haven't seen before. You know, it's energy. It's like just it's to coin a phrase. It's light and wonder, right? It's it's a lot of stuff that is just exciting for people like me.The European shows are all about new ideas and I think they're leading their way right now
Steven: That’s cool. That's cool. So for new professionals, what advice would you give them if they wanted to start their career in, we'll call it creative, technical, doesn't really matter, but just like starting a career in the gaming industry.
Everyone wants to get into it, what's the best advice there that you could give them for, for starting the industry?
Anthony: Man, that is a harder answer today than it was like years ago
Steven: Yeah.
Anthony: I think there's so many tools out there like unity That are actually very simple to pick up that you need to start playing around with. We've said it before that if you want to stay employed, you should always kind of learn new things.
I think if you want to start being employed, you need a wide range of experiences and knowledge about these platforms that exist. 3D graphic packages like Maya, 3D Studio, there's so many of them. But think really trying to make your own game will show you and teach you the processes of what you need to go through.
The big game this year at the game awards was bilateral, right? It almost won game of the year at the game awards and that was developed by one person. The tools available to that person are now so powerful that you could really do quite a bit.
If you go on LinkedIn, there's a page called hit marker. They usually kind of showcase independent games and games made by one or two people That's what I would suggest like start getting into stuff like that.
You know, I'm older the way that we did it, I don't know if you remember this, Steve, they used to have magazines, this thing called magazines, and they used to write code. They would give you like a code, and you used to like program the games and copy the code from the magazine to the Commodore 64.You just gotta get involved and get your hands in it, really.
Steven: Yeah, that, that Bellatio game is crazy, I've got it on my phone too. I bought it and the first time I picked it up, I thought I was going to play for maybe like 20 minutes and, two hours later, I'm still playing and I'm like, man, this thing sucked me in.. It's phenomenal.
Anthony: It almost won Game of the Year. In the video game awards, where you have literally 10 billion dollars of dev budget up against a guy.
Steven: Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's almost like a flappy bird situation there. You came up with a cool concept and it just took off. Yeah, that game is phenomenal.
Anthony: And, and it made 10 million, just so the casino industry is listening, it is a poker game. This is a poker game, and this is what we're talking about, Steve, that's a real money video game, that's exactly what we're talking about. As more and more of those games Come out, the industry will change. And if you played it as you have, that game is very hard to put down.
Steven: It is.
Anthony: Yeah, and it's not just poker. It's like magic poker. It's incredible.
Steven: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely like a combination of a couple of different products.
From a gaming perspective, now, if I can put on your business hat here, for anyone who's an entrepreneur getting into the gaming industry, what advice would you give someone to start up your own company?
You've done it so many times. It sounds like you have quite a bit of experience.
Anthony: I have to survive because I always work with people smarter than me and that that isn't like a soft basing comment, that's actually literally true.
Creatives don't really have a lot of understanding Of business concepts generally. I've been exposed to them, but you don't really generally see them and people native to both, it's either one or the other left brain, right brain.
If you're going to create your own company and you need to understand what you're getting into. So anytime that I do anything there's all these prerequisites that are like, is this a good idea?
The companies that I’ve done that worked Are obviously the good examples the ones that I’ve thought of that haven't are the bad examples, right? And some of the ones that haven't worked Didn't fail because they were bad ideas they failed or didn't take off because they were at the wrong time. I didn't have enough money to launch it, I didn't have the resources or the time to build it's all these different factors, right?
I think if you're going to go into creating your own company, you really don't want to follow trends.
You have to think about marketing, you have to think about how long to market, you have to think about competitive products, you have to think about who the people are around you. They can help you not just financially, but also manage a team, fact check you. Sometimes you need the truth if you're going to succeed, right? So it is a very difficult job. Americans are very good at entrepreneurship for whatever reason maybe it's in our charter, but it is not an easy thing.
So understanding what you're going to get into is probably the most important thing. If you're going to make games for the regulated market, what does that mean? What does licensing mean? What does it mean to get licensed? What does it mean to get compliant? What is that process? How do you put your games out to the consumer? Some of these things are not easily known either, a lot of these things when we went into this field, we expected there to be a manual, there isn't. So you gotta be really, really, really good at getting information that's not readily apparent.
You need to know stuff, and then you need to know people who know stuff, and then we go back to the earlier thing, never burn any bridges.
Steven: There you go.
Anthony: You come back and destroy everything you've built.
Steven: There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Taking a full circle there. so one last question here. So what type of legacy would you like to leave on the, or just the world in general?
Anthony: Well, I don't really think about that, honestly.
I go to conventions and people say, Oh, you worked on this or that, you know, game or television show. And I really enjoy that but I think if you get hung up on it, You're not doing it for yourself anymore, you're doing it for attention.
Where I get rewarded, and it does sound a little corny, Is in going to the conventions and doing the presentations and seeing people play the games. It's the experience of being in the industry, That you love That's the reward for me
Steven: Yeah. You know, like I've made a lot of games in my life and just going around from, casino to casino and seeing people play the games that you make. You can't put a price on that. That's just, that's just a cool feeling, you know, seeing everyone just having a good time.
That's, that's really cool. Anthony, I definitely want to say, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it, wish your company the best of luck. It's a God hammer gaming group, which is, which is a phenomenal name, by the way.
And I hope to see you soon. Thank you so much, man.
Anthony: Thanks Steve, thank you for the time. It's a lot of fun
